NFPA 99 2012 Edition Section #5.1.10.11.11

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  • Wednesday, April 19, 2017 10:40 AM
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    Reply # 4763433 on 4749264
    Mark Allen

    I think Al has exposed the nub of the matter - the card is not the procedure.  However, I believe (please correct me) that most verifiers consider that the card is sufficient to document compliance with 5.1.10.11.11.  I certainly do not criticize that approach, since I would do the same - afterall, to get the card you obviously followed a procedure.  

    Bob says he has four different procedures, plus his reference to a fifth in the CDA - How material are the differences between them?  If we compared those to the ones from NITC or MGTC or whoever, what would we find?  Is there something truly of concern here?

     
  • Wednesday, April 19, 2017 5:10 PM
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    Reply # 4764207 on 4749264
    Corky Bishop

    The typical test brazement is 1 1/2" copper to copper using BCuP-5 (SIL-FOS) filler metal.  If you change the thickness of the copper,  use different materials, or different filler metals, it will change the procedure. 

     

    Other criteria include joint type, clearance, overlap, deburring, Nitrogen NF purge, and torch type. 
  • Wednesday, April 19, 2017 9:09 PM
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    Reply # 4764522 on 4749264
    Al Moon (Administrator)

    So, qualifying with 1 1/2" / covers installer to 4" plus ?

     

     

     
  • Thursday, April 20, 2017 7:36 AM
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    Reply # 4765330 on 4749264
    Robert Sutter

    No. In 2015 NITC issued a letter on Braze Test Specifications. The letter was written around their Brazing Test Procedure BTS15 which is the common tests that most brazers qualify under using 1-1/2" copper. In that letter it explains that qualifying under that procedure or simular procedures using 1-1/2" copper qualifies the individual to braze in the 5/8" to 2" range (see the following link for a summary of that letter http://nationalitc.com/certifications/brazing-processes-2.cfm ). Any installer brazing outside of those diameters needs to provide evidence that they have been qualified for those other diameters. While the card is nice I need to see the individuals Brazing Procedure Qualification Record (BPQR). The BPQR will be tied into a specific Brazing Procedure Specification (BPS) so I would not be overly concerned when checking the brazers qualifications to see the BPS. The construction specification should identify the BPS to be used and require the installer (brazer) to be qualified to that specification. 
  • Thursday, April 20, 2017 9:50 PM
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    Reply # 4766927 on 4749264
    Al Moon (Administrator)

    Thank you sir and that was my point.

    The Brazing Document ( in writing ) would cover this.

     
  • Friday, April 21, 2017 8:27 PM
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    Reply # 4768681 on 4749264
    Anonymous

    To answer Al's original question, has anyone ever seen a written brazing procedure, I offer the following document provided by the NITC.

     

     Sample BPS148
  • Saturday, April 22, 2017 2:10 PM
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    Reply # 4769808 on 4749264
    Al Moon (Administrator)

    well now / thank you JAY / you are the best / is it safe to say a simple cut and paste will satisfy the procedure ?  
  • Saturday, April 22, 2017 4:47 PM
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    Reply # 4770051 on 4749264
    Anonymous

    I would say so Al. I think copy & pasting it on company letterhead would suffice.  
  • Monday, April 24, 2017 9:52 AM
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    Reply # 4772147 on 4749264
    Robert Sutter

    That is just the Brazing Procedure Specification (BPS), it supports the Procedure Qualification Record (PQR) this information is noted at the top of the paper saying that it supports a number of PQR's. The individual performs a brazing test to the PQR's and if successful will recieve a BPQR or BQR. The BPS is general and broad in nature. The PQR qualifies various thicknesses or diameters of tubing. The BQR is evidence that individual can braze a range of tubing. Someone who can braze 1/2" might not have the skill to braze 4". The following is from the CDA website. 

    • Brazing Procedure Specifications (BPS) - the document that specifies the required brazing variables for a specific application.
    • Procedure Qualification Record (PQR) - a record of brazing variables and conditions used to produce an acceptable test brazement and the results of tests conducted on the brazement to qualify a brazing procedure specification.
    • Brazing Performance Qualification Record (BPQR or BQR) - a record of the brazing conditions used to produce an acceptable test brazement and the results of the tests conducted on the brazement to qualify a brazer.
  • Monday, April 24, 2017 10:23 AM
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    Reply # 4772228 on 4749264
    Mathis Carlson (Administrator)
    The employer would have to provide both the BPS that their guys are qualified to, as well as the supporting BQR and proof of continuity of each brazer. 
    If they are working on multiple sizes 1/2"-6", they will have multiple procedures and qualifications for each brazer.

    Most BQR forms that I have seen have a place where the employer can sign and date to adopt that qualification and BPS. But they would still have to have a copy of the BPS that they are adopting.

    Per 5.1.10.11.10.5, all of the documentation is required to be on site prior to the beginning of work.
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