Medical Gas Professional Healthcare Organization

Leading through education, we save lives


Total oxidizers in combined vacuum pump systems

<< First  < Prev   1   2   Next >  Last >> 
  • Tuesday, December 24, 2019 8:24 AM
    Message # 8375229

    I am noticing that some AHJ's are enforcing 5.1.3.8.1.2 (2), and that some are ignoring the code. Can I get a feel from across the land, if you have had this code

    brought to your attention regarding start-up/verification of combined use vacuum systems.

  • Wednesday, December 25, 2019 12:37 PM
    Reply # 8387291 on 8375229
    Al Moon (Administrator)


    This is code section from NFPA 99 2012 Edition is clear as mud.


    1) Frist: in RED the word or.


    2) Second: A statement that if the equipment manufacturer is OK, then all is good

    #5.1.3.7.2.1.


    3) Third: One would think per #5.1.3.8.2.1 (part 2). If the unit is water seal, dry vane or rotary claw, all is good again / business as normal.


    4) Fourth: This code section does not address any of the following items.

    Monitoring, Alarming and What Is To Happen If The Source Goes Over 23.6% O2 & N2O Concentration of Oxidizers.



    #5.1.3.8.1.2

    If WAGD is produced by the medical–surgical vacuum source, the following shall apply: 

    (1) The medical–surgical vacuum source shall comply with 5.1.3.7.

    (2) The total concentration of oxidizers (oxygen and nitrous oxide) shall be maintained below 23.6 percent, or the vacuum pump shall comply with 5.1.3.8.2.1.


     

    #5.1.3.8.2  WAGD Producers.

    #5.1.3.8.2.1  Vacuum pumps dedicated for WAGD service shall be as follows: 

    (1)  Compliant with 5.1.3.7.2

    (2) Designed of materials and using lubricants and sealants that are inert in the presence of oxygen, nitrous oxide, and halogenated anesthetics

     

    #5.1.3.7.2 

    Vacuum Pumps.

    #5.1.3.7.2.1

    Vacuum pumps shall be constructed of materials deemed suitable by the manufacturer.


  • Thursday, December 26, 2019 1:15 AM
    Reply # 8391950 on 8375229

    So if: (1) the unit is utilized for combined Med/Surg vacuum and WAGD,

    and (2) the pumps are not inert in the presence of oxygen, nitrous oxide , and halogenated anesthetics (i.e. oil-sealed rotary, oil sealed liquid ring, or non-O2 assured Claw)

    then (3) the total concentration of oxidizers must be maintained below 23.6%.


    Simple, if you have the capability of maintaining Oxidizers (Oxygen and Nitrous Oxide) below 23.6%.

  • Thursday, December 26, 2019 8:16 AM
    Reply # 8394370 on 8375229
    Al Moon (Administrator)

    Yes - I Agree to all three items you have listed.


    But it's the lack of direction from the NFPA 99 Code, that I have a problem.

    Concerning mostly with how to maintain below this 23.6 %, and what to do if it is over 23.6%. 


    1) Where is this > 23.6% to be measured ?

    ( i.e. at the user connection points, or in the main vacuum line or at the source vacuum ball valve or at the vacuum receiver, or inside the vacuum receiver or at the outside vacuum exhaust point ? )


    2) What kind of instrumentation is to be used ?

    ( i.e. for both oxygen & nitrous oxide) ?

    Yes, I understand in newer editions the nitrous oxide may be removed, but Edition 2012 of NFPA 99 is the rule of order.


    3) Does NFPA 99 Require Any Alarms ? 


    4) Where in the code does it even state it's to be measured ?


    5) Does NFPA 99 Supply Any Directions On What The Healthcare Staff Is To Do ?

    If The System Is Over > 23.6% Oxidizer (O2 & N2O) ?

    ( i.e. in a medical air compressor system on a high temperature alarm the unit is to shutdown so should a oxidizer reading of over 23.6 % not also shutdown the medical surgical combo wagd producer ? )



    In my opinion only:

      


  • Thursday, December 26, 2019 8:24 AM
    Reply # 8394414 on 8375229
    Mathis Carlson (Administrator)

    Honestly I see this as more of an operational issue for the facility rather than a verifier issue. How can a verifier at start up or verification understand operationally what the anesthesia team is doing or planning on doing in the OR with their WAGD circuit?

    Some verifiers have a little bit of an idea because they are also involved in employee exposure testing in the OR, but there are also many who's only work in the OR is going in to test the outlets and then leaving. 

    In the past when I knew a verification report was going to be heavily analyzed and scrutinized, I included a statement similar to this in my report: 

    "The Medical-Surgical Vacuum system is combined for WAGD use. NFPA 99 requires for combined systems that the level of oxidizers in the system be maintained under 23.6%, or the pumps shall be designed of materials and lubricants or sealants that are inert in the presence of Oxygen or other oxidizers. The installed equipment is not an oxygen cleaned system. This type of system would require testing to ensure that levels of oxidizers are under 23.6%. This testing can't be performed until the facility is in normal operation and will not be tested as part of this verification."

  • Friday, December 27, 2019 10:58 AM
    Reply # 8401896 on 8375229

    Your original question is yes.

  • Sunday, December 29, 2019 11:30 AM
    Reply # 8417189 on 8375229
    Al Moon (Administrator)

    Wow


    What was the requirement ?

    What it in writing or verbal ?


  • Saturday, January 11, 2020 9:24 AM
    Reply # 8544061 on 8375229

    Al,

    to answer your questions concerning the Total Oxidizer concentration, please see my comments in italics:


    But it's the lack of direction from the NFPA 99 Code, that I have a problem.

    Concerning mostly with how to maintain below this 23.6 %, and what to do if it is over 23.6%. 


    1) Where is this > 23.6% to be measured ?

    ( i.e. at the user connection points, or in the main vacuum line or at the source vacuum ball valve or at the vacuum receiver, or inside the vacuum receiver or at the outside vacuum exhaust point ? )


    The code is asking for protection of high oxidizers entering the vacuum pumps, so the sensor needs to be placed at the inlet to the pumps. See response at 4.1.


    2) What kind of instrumentation is to be used ?

    ( i.e. for both oxygen & nitrous oxide) ?

    Yes, I understand in newer editions the nitrous oxide may be removed, but Edition 2012 of NFPA 99 is the rule of order.


    The sensor must be capable of sensing both oxygen and nitrous oxide. (per NFPA 99, 2012, oxygen only for NFPA 99 2018)


    3) Does NFPA 99 Require Any Alarms ? 


    (1) warning for High O2% at 21%, (1) alarm for High O2 @ 23.6%, both warning & alarm have dry contact outputs available to be wired to the MAP's.


    4) Where in the code does it even state it's to be measured ?


    When the code doesn't specifically address specific design criteria requirements like this, as from the US government in other industries, we develop what we call derived requirements. So, here are my DRAFT derived requirements for NFPA 99 5.1.3.8.1.2 (2):

    1. The total concentration of oxidizers shall be measured where all facility vacuum piping becomes centralized prior to each vacuum pump isolation valve.
    2. Oxidizer monitoring shall provide continuous surveillance of the vacuum system while the facility is in operation.
    3. If oxidizer levels are expected to exceed the required limit during facility operation, active oxidizer mitigation shall be employed prior to the vacuum pump inlet (unless the pump complies with 5.1.3.8.2.1) to maintain total oxidizer concentration below the required limit.
    4. A local alarm signal shall activate when monitored oxidizer levels exceed the required limit. This local alarm signal could also be provided to the master alarm panel.


    5) Does NFPA 99 Supply Any Directions On What The Healthcare Staff Is To Do ?

    If The System Is Over > 23.6% Oxidizer (O2 & N2O) ?

    ( i.e. in a medical air compressor system on a high temperature alarm the unit is to shutdown so should a oxidizer reading of over 23.6 % not also shutdown the medical surgical combo wagd producer ? )


     See response at 4.2; A mitigation process of the high oxidizer concentration needs to be employed.


    Scott Jussel

  • Sunday, January 12, 2020 8:44 AM
    Reply # 8552198 on 8375229
    Al Moon (Administrator)

    I understand were you are going.

    But the facts are, within the NFPA 99 2012 Code Edition Chapter 5.

    The wording you are listing is just not printed.


    Their may be time to add this to the next edition?


    For now in my opinion the current approved NFPA 99 Code adopted by CMS. 

    Does not address measuring, alarming or what to do if the oxidizer in the medical / wagd combo system is above 23.6%. 



  • Monday, January 13, 2020 5:24 AM
    Reply # 8559374 on 8375229

    Scott:

    Like your proposal, and I do think it should be proposed for the next edition.


    One additional thought: the sensors will need calibration, so please make sure you add a requirement for at least annual calibration back in 5.1.14!

<< First  < Prev   1   2   Next >  Last >> 

16339 Kranker Drive, Stilwell, KS 66085

mgpho@me.com